As promised, transcript of Hinckson interview

This interview was conducted by Mark Benschop the day after the press conference where Mr. Hinckson allegedly uttered the seditious statements that he is now charged for.Mr. Hinckson, as an ex-officer in the Guyana Defence Force and someone who has been standing up for all Guyanese in the past and even today –

Mark Benschop:

You have been commissioned by the Queen of England – obviously you are in a position to analyze what is happening in Guyana today.

Oliver Hinckson:

We have had reports of the joint services smashing down doors and breaking up people’s television sets and other personal property. We have seen, from a military perspective, that this is not the way to go. In any aspect of warfare, the emphasis must be on winning the hearts and minds of the civilian population. And if our army, our joint service should go in this direction, clearly there will be no cooperation from the civilian population. We have witnessed a ninety-three year old woman trembling in her boots, about to keel over in front of soldiers. This is not nice. It doesn’t speak well for the GDF and it drives fear into the populace.

Mark Benschop:

With regards to what you have just said about civilians not cooperating with the joint services – where is our country heading if the people do not have confidence in the joint services?

Oliver Hinckson:

That would be extended to the government itself, which is more a regime than a government of all the people. If they don’t have confidence in the people who are supposed to safeguard their security and safety, their very lives as well, by extension they will say that the government is responsible for this and they are clearly heading down the wrong road.

Mark Benschop:

Having said that, do you feel that the GDF has been infiltrated by notorious drug criminals?

Oliver Hinckson:

Evidence in the past showed that at least two army officers had been interdicted from duty for trying to make contact with drug lords. But I would not be so presumptuous to say that that esteemed institution has been infiltrated by drug lords.

Mark Benschop:

Would you say that the government has hijacked the army?

Oliver Hinckson:

Clearly the office of the upper echelon of the army has become virtually innocuous. We have seen the establishment of the MCID and, I think there is something else called the PID and another branch. These are, as I mentioned, Gestapo-like, KGB elements. We know that the government originally was communist. They are still dyed-in-the-wool socialists, and these are old techniques that have been used for infiltrating the bureaucracy. But what was pointed out recently but someone in the press is that it appears that this very bureaucracy, the military and the police are not solidly behind the president.

Mark Benschop:

And would you consider this to be a very dangerous situation?

Oliver Hinckson:

Well we can all wait and see if we are not all dead by then at the hands of these jack booted, Gestapo type elements within the army.

Mark Benschop:

We have witnessed, for the first time in our country’s history, a head of the army pledging allegiance to the government of the day – I’m speaking about Commodore Gary Best who, during his inauguration, said that he is pledging his full support or allegiance to the government. How do you interpret Commodore Best’s statement as an ex army officer?

Oliver Hinckson:

On the face of it, it would appear as though the Chief of Staff was speaking for the entire army. But you know the sentiments of the individual soldier would lie within his breast, and perhaps, by mistake, he was trying to say that the army, as in the old British times, should be supportive of the government of the day and not too intimately and intricately involved in the politics of the government. He should have come back subsequently and clarified that statement because a lot of people took offence at it. But one wonders when you notice the venom and the eagerness with which senior officers of the military seem to want to carry out the requests, orders and instructions of venal and corrupt politicians, it leaves you to wonder whether we are heading down a dangerous path.

Mark Benschop:

Let’s take what Commodore Best has said about his allegiance to the government of the day and compare it with Mr Jagdeo saying that he doesn’t wish for anyone to pledge allegiance to him. What do you think?

Oliver Hinckson:

I did not hear or cannot recall that but if that was said, clearly it seems to be the president’s way of handling things. There seems to be no proper order and very many people seem to be putting their foot in their mouth.

Mark Benschop:

Let’s talk about the killings now. In this country we talk about seeing children gunned down. We are talking about several villages. There was a young boy who was gunned down in Buxton among other instances. What do you think of the wanton killing of children in these times?

Oliver Hinckson:

It is a horrific incident at all times and it must impact upon the senses of humanity. We have seen this government pass legislation in regards to the abortion act. And that, to my mind, is, in itself, murder of an unborn child. We have seen the Minister of Health publicly declaring that the Public Hospital of Georgetown is the ideal and perfect place to go and have an abortion. When this act was passed, there was a great hue and cry and public demonstrations clearly showing that not very many people were in agreement with such a move. But at the basis of it is the fact that the government has condoned murder. We have seen Minister Gail Texieira at the time when there was the Rosehall bank robbery publicly declaring that those robbers must be killed. Must be killed! Since when is the penalty for bank robbery death? A man is entitled to be tried before a panel of jurors of his peers, and if found guilty, there are stipulated penalties for such crimes. But the penalty for bank robbery, I assure you, is not death. But we have descended into that. We have seen ‘Gangster’ line up six men, six young boys, and execute them and is now walking the road without a charge under this regime. We have seen a little boy executed in Agricola, another one at Bagotstown and even the children at Lusignan, but this a tragic past. The society we live in must look at itself in the mirror and ask itself questions; how am I to blame? Did I contribute in anyway to this? Did I allow a government and a president who are careening down the road like a runaway bus taking us all down a destructive path? Did I allow this without lifting a finger to stop this from happening?

Mark Benschop:

So what you are saying is that the genesis of the killing, especially of little children under the PPP regime (and I am quite sure that people like Dr. Leslie Ramsammy and Gail Texieira would wish to rebut) started with the Abortion Act. What we see in our country today is pretty obvious to everyone and that is, the regime seems to be condoning murders committed by one group of known criminals, the Phantom against young black men. How could we possibly tolerate a government of that nature?

Oliver Hinckson:

Well, those actions do not surprise me. We are dealing with an unconscionable set of people. We have the Minister of Health, who has removed the dialysis machine from the public hospital and put them somewhere else where nobody knows and at the present moment there are no dialysis machines at the Public Hospital after the Muslim community had donated two. Now I spoke to a matron at the hospital and she said that once you go there with a kidney problem you are condemned to die because the minister has removed the machines. Where are they? Are they at another hospital? Are they being used in a mercenary fashion? Are they being used in a way where there is a kickback? These are questions that the minister must answer. I can recall reading in the newspapers that these two machines were found in the minister’s office instead of the clinic where they could have been used for the general good. We are dealing with people who consider human life inconsequential.

Mark Benschop:

Would you say that we are dealing with a regime that considers a black person’s life as being inconsequential?

Oliver Hinckson:

From all appearances this is very self evident. We have seen a great brouhaha whenever there is a murder in an Indian village but when there is a murder in black villages such as Agricola or Bagotstown no government ministers go there. No Indian government minister goes there. This is not to say that Indian people are not good. Some of my very best friends are Indian and I believe that this country belongs to all of us regardless of his ethnicity but there is a fascist clique within the government that has adopted very supercilious attitude and it looks down in arrogance, especially at the lives of the black man. Cheddi Jagan himself said that the blacks are at the bottom rung of the social ladder. Maybe he knows what he is talking about. Maybe he did an empirical study of this. But if you and I were to do an empirical study of the loss of lives of Indians and compare it to blacks in Guyana you would see that too many blacks have been killed. Out of the 434 youths who were killed from 2002, the vast majority were blacks, and they were killed in an extra-judicial manner. This is not nice. It is unacceptable. If you president of a nation, then you must show compassion for all the people, and this is clearly not the case.

Mark Benschop:

Corporal Ivor Williams, who was laid to rest a few days back, was buried without any member of government in attendance at his funeral to pay their respects. How do you think the twenty thousand odd ex-soldiers along with the young ones currently serving would view this?

Oliver Hinckson:

You can take a look at Corporal Ivor Williams and see that he was a fine young man and it bleeds the heart of every soldier to know that one of their comrades in arms was killed in the line of duty, and who is to say that it is the bandits that shot at that patrol, knowing the politicians and knowing the communists. They would try any act, any nefarious act. I have my suspicions about the death of Corporal Williams. I will go as far as laying blame equally at the feet of the politicians as well as the bandits. As a soldier, the treatment of Ivor Williams smacks of disrespect on all soldiers and lack of consideration for the life of a young man and all the young men who would put their lives on the line for this country. Who have put their lives in the past Ancoco, Lethem, New River and Buxton and who are willing to put their lives on the line in the future. The shabby treatment of Corporal Williams, which we saw vividly the impact it had on his relatives, the packing of his coffin with newspapers. That is just bad form. It is bad form and there is no way that whoever was responsible for this will go back and apologise to this family. The damage has already been done. The military must now step up their act and stop acting like house slaves and lackeys. Stop it. In third world countries the military has a very important and consequential say in matters, whether political or otherwise. Because how they respond as the ultimate coercive force will ultimately have an impact on the lives of all the people, and therefore they must put their foot down on a very arrogant, corrupt and abrasive government. I am categorically stating that nobody is saying you must rise in mutiny. Nobody is saying that. We are saying this categorically – nobody is saying we must rise up in mutiny But at the same time the leaders must say, “You are going too far. It cannot work and we advise you not to go in this direction.” Merely speaking as the military can have a great influence on outcomes and outputs in this society.

Mark Benschop:

The operations that have been going on in Buxton where they are kicking down doors, harassing woman and brutalising children - would you say that this is the legitimate role of the army where there is the absence of a state of emergency?

Oliver Hinckson:

The military may be used when crime transcends itself from crime into acts of terrorism. There is a thin red line between the two. If a man goes out and snatches a purse and stabs the victim with a knife, that is basic crime. If the crime is narco-trafficking, and we have seen Guyana in the forefront of that, even reaching as far as Italy now, we have seen big drug dealers arrested and incarcerated in the United States. If narco-trafficking moves itself from just basic selling of drugs and the proceeds are used for terrorism, then we can see the military coming in here and putting a stop to that aspect of crime, that type of crime.

Mark Benschop:

When you say ‘putting a stop’ precisely what do you mean? Because we have experienced that with the hunting down of the US fugitive Roger Khan who is now facing a drug charge in the US. Are you saying that the army should have taken full control of the situation?

Oliver Hinckson:

The army was part of the situation. They were quite integral and mainly part of the joint service operations that flushed him out because he had gone into hiding with the disappearance of the weapons. And the pressure was so much, he fled across the border to Suriname, and was apprehended there. Had it not been for the military then, he would not have been flushed out. Because the US has said that the government of Guyana, this present government has not been cooperative and collaborative with the efforts to apprehend and extradite drug dealers. But the military must know where the cut off point is. I am saying in basic day to day crime fighting operations, the police have the capacity to handle that.

Mark Benschop:

Where do we go from here as a nation with regards to our citizens who are dissatisfied? I am talking about all our citizens because we have witnessed what happened in Lusignan and the immediate protest thereafter where the people laid the blame squarely at the feet of the government quite vociferously.

Oliver Hinckson:

Well we know for sure where we are heading. We are heading down a slippery slope towards our doom and we must all, as a nation, stand up and say enough is enough. We have lived wonderfully with each other for the longest while, since 1964 to now without incidents like this. The people themselves have gotten fed up of being used especially by the clique within the PPP. And I made a suggestion that we must all sit at the table, all those who have the goodwill and the interest of the people at heart, must sit at the table. The pie must be divided in a proportionate way and everybody must be able to feel satisfied. Freddie Kisson wrote a beautiful article outlining the lifespan of all autocratic regimes, and clearly the Jagdeo regime is in full decline. There will be no coming back because his own people have turned against him. He cannot lie to them anymore. He cannot con them anymore. For one silly moment he thought that the people loved him more than they loved the PPP. They loved Cheddie and they love the PPP and if he were to leave the PPP to form his own party, he would get a rude awakening. The way forward for Guyana is togetherness, sharing the pie, some people call it shared governance, and I feel more authority, more responsibility must be placed in the hands of the local organisations.

Mark Benschop:

You have recently said that you want to see the healing of this nation but your remarks incurred the wrath of the government when you said that you are willing work towards bringing all parties together to reach some sort of understanding. Further controversy was invoked by your taking umbrage at the fact that they are referring to these gunmen as bandits, preferring instead the term insurgents. How do you propose to bring these parties together?

Oliver Hinckson:

Individuals who have a stake in this whole problem, not only government officials, but people like the village chairman, because Buxton has been highly offended. It has been demonised like so many black leaders and black villages. The chairman of Buxton, someone who has a connect with the insurgents, who can speak to them. He may not be able to go wherever they are geographically, but he would have known by now the mindset of these men, and what is it that is their grievance, what is their beef and what are their hopes and aspirations, not only for themselves, but for the nation. Then there are other people; political parties, civil society. Every time there is a problem, some confrontation between the insurgents and the military, the streets are bare and businesses are affected. So there are very many people who have an interest in this. There can be preliminary talks because I know that an insurgent is not going to put down his gun and come to any table himself. He is going to send his emissary and that emissary must be safeguarded of course. But, as I said, I and some of my people who are ex-military are willing to go into Buxton and speak to the chairman, speak to the emissary, speak to whoever it is and act as a go between. If you go into Buxton representing evil, chances are you will be shot at by the insurgents. I think I have the credibility with the young people, whether they are military, ex-military, insurgents, emissaries, I believe that I have the capacity to talk to these people and act as a go between. It is being done in the field of diplomacy and I am willing to put my life at risk. I know that the PPP is riddled with cowards, I am prepared to put my life on the line, if there is any risk at all, and venture to wherever the emissary may be, and bring this thing to a peaceful resolution.